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forest lore


Consciousness
conscious
self-aware

simple fare, not denied
to self-organization
we call life.

We come alive in narrative.

Structured tales
tether history,
scientific discovery:
We saw, surmised, tested,
told for you to see.
All of artistry suspends in story,

society, politics, religion,
myths of tribes and
nations; war and tribulations,
arguments for peace, for justice,
philosophers' laboratories,
suggestions, syntheses
Grey matter cogitates, spins
memory far beyond
sense perception,
evolving interaction within
an eco-sphere.

A tree may speak of self
within its frame

But feels no need to form
fantasies of ancient trees,
explain the lore of forest

------------------
[original]

Consciousness
Conscious
Self-aware
These are simple fare, not denied
to self-organization
we call life.
What is ours is narrative.
Structured tales
tethers to history,
scientific discovery:
We saw, surmised, tested,
told for you to see.
All of artistry suspends in story,
society, politics, religion,
myths of we and they and
nations; war stories,
arguments for peace, for justice,
philosophers' laboratories,
suggestions, syntheses
of what use are these?
Grey matter cogitates, spins
memory far beyond
sense perception,
respected interaction within
an eco-sphere.
A tree may speak of self
within its form
But does it need to form
fantasies of ancient trees,
explain the lore of forest?

Last edited by libramoon, Oct/28/2010, 1:53 pm
Oct/10/2010, 5:44 pm Link to this post Send Email to libramoon   Send PM to libramoon Blog
 
Terreson Profile
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Re: forest lore


I am thinking. Your poems tend to set me off thinking the way Muriel Rukeiser's can. Poem's sense is in the title, yes? Only, I would call it tree lore, not forest lore, to bring attention to each of the thirteen sacred trees.

Tere
Oct/10/2010, 11:06 pm Link to this post Send Email to Terreson   Send PM to Terreson
 
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Re: forest lore


No doubt this was influenced by my earlier infatuation with Rukeiser's St. Roach.
Oct/11/2010, 12:15 am Link to this post Send Email to libramoon   Send PM to libramoon Blog
 
pjouissance Profile
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Re: forest lore


Hi, Libra (me too),

I don't know the Rukeyser poem so am probably missing a lot here. My basic problems with the poem are that it's not sharp enough yet, and it's preachy, but that's what rewrites are for. It's certainly ambitious. Writing a philosophical poem from an omniscient viewpoint sets a high bar of performance.


Consciousness
Conscious
Self-aware
(One of these 3 words would do, I think maybe)

These are simple fare, not denied
to self-organization
we call life.
(there's something grammatically wrong with calling the 3 words "these are simple fare." I think maybe "fare" is a singular.)

What is ours is narrative.
(This has been talked about a lot, so I don't need to be told this baldly, and now I'm looking for something fresh to be said)

Structured tales
tethers to history,
("tethers" bothers me because I can't help taking it as an ungrammatical verb)

scientific discovery:
We saw, surmised, tested,
told for you to see.
All of artistry suspends in story,
("suspends" is vague - what is really being said here?)

society, politics, religion,
myths of we and they and
(the pronouns, "we" "they" and "you" here seem a bit unfocused)

nations; war stories,
arguments for peace, for justice,
philosophers' laboratories,
suggestions, syntheses
of what use are these?
(I'm trying to follow the train of thought here. All human consciousness is in the form of a narrative. It's all put into stories, and what use are they? So this poem attacks the need for self-awareness?)

Grey matter cogitates, spins
memory far beyond
sense perception,
respected interaction within
an eco-sphere.
(what is "respected" in here for? who is respecting? "Gray matter cogitates" has an odd Victorian ring to it)

A tree may speak of self
within its form
("through" its form?)

But does it need to form
fantasies of ancient trees,
explain the lore of forest?

The point seems to be that self-awareness is unnecessary and unnatural and that we should be like trees and not have narratives. There's a lot of writing about this and it's interesting to think about, but for a poem, why not get wild and speak from the viewpoint of the tree, letting us see how different its consciousness is without the narratives, or something that adds to the discussion?

Most of the poem allows the thought to overwhelm art. It tells us what to think. We react a little critically. I can attest that I do exactly the same thing when I have a philosophical epiphany; I just want to get it down, it's hard enough getting it said at all, and I sort of forget I'm writing poetry. Adding the tree at the end helps, but I'd draw the tree metaphor over the whole poem. You've got the thought, hold it, and on the rewrite you can look again at the art.

Thanks for the posting,

Auto
Oct/12/2010, 12:18 pm Link to this post Send Email to pjouissance   Send PM to pjouissance
 
libramoon Profile
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Re: forest lore


Thanks, Auto.


Consciousness
conscious
self-aware

simple fare, not denied
to self-organization
we call life.

We come alive in narrative.

Structured tales
tether history,
scientific discovery:
We saw, surmised, tested,
told for you to see.
All of artistry suspends in story,

society, politics, religion,
myths of tribes and
nations; war and tribulations,
arguments for peace, for justice,
philosophers' laboratories,
suggestions, syntheses
Grey matter cogitates, spins
memory far beyond
sense perception,
evolving interaction within
an eco-sphere.

A tree may speak of self
within its frame

But feels no need to form
fantasies of ancient trees,
explain the lore of forest
Oct/12/2010, 4:45 pm Link to this post Send Email to libramoon   Send PM to libramoon Blog
 
pjouissance Profile
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Re: forest lore


Hi, Libra,

Nice polish! Feels much more lucid.

maybe a period on the end?

Take care,

Pam
Oct/12/2010, 5:01 pm Link to this post Send Email to pjouissance   Send PM to pjouissance
 
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Re: forest lore


libramoon,

You might want to move this version to the top and call it Rev. 1 or something like that, and possibly leave the original below it as "Original". On occasion I and others won't read all the comments, and read only the poem at the top. Just my observation; you don't have to follow it.

As to the poem itself, I would prefer the poem to be constructed around "A tree may speak of self". For me that's where the poem really takes off, from there and the last stanza. For me it would be more interesting to build the poem around that, and it would be more fun to read. But yes, I suppose that would be a different poem.

Otherwise, the poem satisfies on a cerebral level but doesn't doesn't speak to me powerfully on a visceral or emotional level.

Not sure that's helpful, but that's how it came across to me.

As for "These are simple fare, not denied" not being grammatical -- I think it is. A simple test is to build a parallel sentence: These men are food, for example. Or these cattle are meat. I'm open to discussion, but I think this is so.

Thanks for posting. Zak

quote:

libramoon wrote:

Thanks, Auto.


Consciousness
conscious
self-aware

simple fare, not denied
to self-organization
we call life.

We come alive in narrative.

Structured tales
tether history,
scientific discovery:
We saw, surmised, tested,
told for you to see.
All of artistry suspends in story,

society, politics, religion,
myths of tribes and
nations; war and tribulations,
arguments for peace, for justice,
philosophers' laboratories,
suggestions, syntheses
Grey matter cogitates, spins
memory far beyond
sense perception,
evolving interaction within
an eco-sphere.

A tree may speak of self
within its frame

But feels no need to form
fantasies of ancient trees,
explain the lore of forest



Oct/13/2010, 5:38 am Link to this post Send Email to Zakzzz5   Send PM to Zakzzz5
 
pjouissance Profile
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Re: forest lore


Hi, all,

Well, I looked up "fare", and the simple definition is "menu". These are simple menu? What a weird word it is.

Auto
Oct/13/2010, 11:14 am Link to this post Send Email to pjouissance   Send PM to pjouissance
 
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Re: forest lore


Auto & libramoon,

Since I live in the South, I'll say, hi ya'all (or some variation). I've copied the dictionary definition of fare. I would say that #4 fits perfectly if we're talking about food. You may be right, Auto; it would depend I think on how libramoon intended to use the word. Fare can be used as singular as food or a ticket. It wouldn't make sense to say these are simple menu, or these are simple ticket, but it would be ok to say these are simple food. Her (his?) decision to cut through the clutter was probably the right one. This exercise was interesting; it made me think. Thanks, Zak
 
fare
   fɛərShow Spelled [fair] Show IPA noun, verb, fared, far•ing.
–noun
1.
the price of conveyance or passage in a bus, train, airplane, or other vehicle.
2.
a person or persons who pay to be conveyed in a vehicle; paying passenger.
3.
a person who hires a public vehicle and its driver.
4.
food; diet: hearty fare.
5.
something offered to the public, for entertainment, enjoyment, consumption, etc.: literary fare.
6.
Archaic . state of things.

quote:

pjouissance wrote:

Hi, all,

Well, I looked up "fare", and the simple definition is "menu". These are simple menu? What a weird word it is.

Auto



Oct/13/2010, 11:27 am Link to this post Send Email to Zakzzz5   Send PM to Zakzzz5
 
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Re: forest lore


Hi, all,

It's not that I'm finicky, I just dig words, and this one's a dilly. I think one could just barely get away with "These are simple food", because "food" acts as a collective noun. But I wonder if "These are simple foods", wouldn't be preferred. Now "fare" is only rarely a plural. "These are simple fares" does seem to work better to me, though, just intuitively, and I know that ain't worth much.

But look at the three philosophical concepts being called "fare". They are more or less synonymous. They're the same thing.

Just going from the gut, I'd pick "self-consciousness", lose the other two, and say, "This is simple fare."

Finally, though, I have to question the ultimate meaning of that line. How is self-consciousness simple? It's unimaginably complex!

At that point I leave it to the poet, as I'm utterly confused.

Auto
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Re: forest lore


Auto,

Yes, "These are simple fares" sounds better in the context. While walking around doing laundry (wife's out of town), I thought of these two:
1. The one-eyed monster said to Jason the Argonaut, "These men are food."
2. "These soldiers of the 4th Infantry are my ticket into Baghdad (sic)."

You're bringing up other questions about self-consciousness. Good point.

Now that we've hijacked libramoon's poem. Zak

quote:

pjouissance wrote:

Hi, all,

It's not that I'm finicky, I just dig words, and this one's a dilly. I think one could just barely get away with "These are simple food", because "food" acts as a collective noun. But I wonder if "These are simple foods", wouldn't be preferred. Now "fare" is only rarely a plural. "These are simple fares" does seem to work better to me, though, just intuitively, and I know that ain't worth much.

But look at the three philosophical concepts being called "fare". They are more or less synonymous. They're the same thing.

Just going from the gut, I'd pick "self-consciousness", lose the other two, and say, "This is simple fare."

Finally, though, I have to question the ultimate meaning of that line. How is self-consciousness simple? It's unimaginably complex!

At that point I leave it to the poet, as I'm utterly confused.

Auto



Oct/13/2010, 1:14 pm Link to this post Send Email to Zakzzz5   Send PM to Zakzzz5
 
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Re: forest lore


Hi, all,

Well, it's about the poem, so I hope we'll be forgiven. Your examples are excellent, Z; "these men are food". I'm almost convinced the usage is okay.

I pulled up the whole section:


Consciousness
Conscious
Self-aware
These are simple fare, not denied
to self-organization
we call life.

I would like to add to the general confusion I feel, that the grouping of 3 includes a noun and two adjectives. How can one treat them alike as fare?

I'm also flummoxed with the idea that "self-aware [is] not denied to self organization we call life." So self-organization is life, and has self-aware.

What is self-organization, and how is it different from self-awareness?

Who is "we"?

Who denies or grants? Does everything living have self-awareness?

I see how PhD theses are written about poem bits now.

Libra, I am stumped by all this.

Auto

Oct/13/2010, 6:10 pm Link to this post Send Email to pjouissance   Send PM to pjouissance
 
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Re: forest lore


Hi Libra,

I think I get the logic behind the poem, and mainly by examining the places I paused to question. First pause came here:

"we call life.
What is ours is narrative."

At first I wanted to suggest something like "What we make is narrative," but I think what you are saying is that instead of life/living, we have the stories we tell.

Second pause came here:

"All of artistry suspends in story,"

Suspends is an interesting word choice, because the word can be read in different, opposite ways. Suspends as in supports or as in stops?

Third pause:

"Grey matter cogitates,"

The language used sets up a barrier, to a purpose I think. "Too much work makes Johnny a dull boy" becomes here "Too much thinking makes us dull." And is reinforced on every side (structured, tethered, etc.).

Fourth pause:

"But does it need to form
fantasies of ancient trees,
explain the lore of forest?"

Hmm, not sure about the word explain there. Oh, okay, it doesn't need to explain at all.
 
Oct/26/2010, 12:10 pm Link to this post Send Email to Katlin   Send PM to Katlin
 
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Re: forest lore


Hi again, Libra,

Sorry to stop in mid-critique, but my computer was acting funny so I wanted to post before I lost everything. In the meantime, I read through the rest of this thread. I second Zak's suggestion to put revisions at the top of the thread, in the first post above the original. Or maybe put a note up there telling people to look for a revision later in the thread. I didn't read the whole thread because I wanted to react to the poem without knowing other people's thoughts, and in doing so, I missed the revision and started commenting on the original.

Anyhoo, Zak wrote:

"Otherwise, the poem satisfies on a cerebral level but doesn't doesn't speak to me powerfully on a visceral or emotional level."

I'm wondering if that wasn't the point? If so, I could see this poem as being one in a series that explores the visceral, emotional levels, the sense perceptions and balanced eco-sphere mentioned here:

"Grey matter cogitates, spins
memory far beyond
sense perception,
respected interaction within
an eco-sphere."

A triptych, perhaps?

Thanks for posting, Libra. I HTH.
  


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Re: forest lore


Hi Libra,

It's the pest again. I noticed in a thread in Ateliers that it is your way to post revisions as you write them later in the thread. Fair enough. Perhaps as a tip to readers you could simply amend the Subject line of a thread to indicate revision(s) are contained within? Something like:

Subject: Re: forest lore (thread includes revisions)

I don't know! I just feel badly that I critiqued a version of the poem you had already rewritten. Sorry about that. emoticon
Oct/26/2010, 1:20 pm Link to this post Send Email to Katlin   Send PM to Katlin
 
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Re: forest lore


Ateliers I see as a workshop where subsequent revisions get posted along the way. For the critiques here, I see the wisdom and will endeavor in the future to post revisions at the top.

Thanks so much for all the comments and thought put into them. No worries, Katlin, about critiquing the original. It's all valuable information.

"Otherwise, the poem satisfies on a cerebral level but doesn't doesn't speak to me powerfully on a visceral or emotional level."

I'm wondering if that wasn't the point?

Yes, I tend to like to write in form that follows function. This is a cerebral piece, expressing a cerebral cogitation about consciousness. As this is a topic I am still examining, I probably will explore it further from other perspectives.


What is self-organization, and how is it different from self-awareness?

Who is "we"?

Who denies or grants? Does everything living have self-awareness?


"Self-organization" is from a definition of life. Self-awareness is debated as being a human trait rather than endemic to life. I argue otherwise.

"We" are homo saps.

We apparently have set ourselves up as arbiters as to who is or is not self-aware. I am saying that everything living does have self-awareness, that what makes humans different is not that awareness but our narratives, the stories we tell that we think of as who we are.



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