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Terreson Profile
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Diamonds and Rust


Fascinating. Play with me please. Which of the two covers has duende?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGMHSbcd_qI&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CP0iVWXdAE

Tere
Jan/22/2010, 1:20 am Link to this post Send Email to Terreson   Send PM to Terreson
 
Dragon59 Profile
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Re: Diamonds and Rust


I'd have to go with the original. Perhaps that's because I know that album so well, I can hear it in my mind any time.

Not that the cover doesn't have some, too, but the original has more.

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Jan/22/2010, 1:58 am Link to this post Send Email to Dragon59   Send PM to Dragon59
 
Patricia Jones Profile
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Re: Diamonds and Rust


The first one with Baez singing it ...

To me, it is not unlike comparing this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX5USg8_1gA

with this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQVvF0AeRLI

I like them both. Love the song and love both artists (probably Knopfler even more than Clapton)...but if there's duende ... keeping in mind my limited understanding of duende...in either of them, I think it is in the first one.


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Jan/22/2010, 3:13 am Link to this post Send Email to Patricia Jones   Send PM to Patricia Jones
 
SteveParker Profile
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Re: Diamonds and Rust


I go with the original too. How can anyone else pull off singing Joan Baez's story as well as her? The duende here is partly in the poetic truth of her singing it. It seems almost like an untouchable song to me that no one could ever remake. I can't really imagine anyone managing to remake something like Casablanca either, for instance. Yeah, no doubt someone could and probably will one day, but some things just seems to have so much genius loci that it would be a fearful task for a different person to try to rework them. Anyway, this song is loaded with old stuff for me, so that makes me less than objective about it. A new version would have to really grab me by the whatever to shake me out of my favouritism.

Steve.
Jan/22/2010, 5:05 pm Link to this post Send Email to SteveParker   Send PM to SteveParker
 
Terreson Profile
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Re: Diamonds and Rust


Good conversation, board buddies. Thanks for playing along. And I disagree with all of you to a person.

Before posting I listened again to Tuskaiae's cover just to make sure.

Joan Baez is one of the greats. Hands down. But to my ear her version is marred by its own control and perfection, the thing, in my language, that always works against duende.

In Tuskaiae's cover I find greater, closer attention given to breath, syllable (each one), sound (implosives especially), a rhythmic structure slightly less strident, more nuanced, and, most of all, the moment's emotion. Finally I can see that phone call as something immediate, happening last night.

Without question, and in comparison, Joan Baez is the greater technician. And I've known the song since '76. Last night, listening to the other cover, I felt as if I was hearing it for the first time, discovering an emotion I hadn't found before in the song. Duende.

Not to worry. I am sure you are all right.

Tere
Jan/22/2010, 7:49 pm Link to this post Send Email to Terreson   Send PM to Terreson
 
SteveParker Profile
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Re: Diamonds and Rust


I think I might just have changed my mind. There's far more need and passion going on here than in JB's version. Great sepia effect too. Maybe this is what it was like when Joan Baez first played it in her bedroom to her friends before she'd got it all polished and practiced.

I think you might be right.

Steve.
Jan/28/2010, 5:23 am Link to this post Send Email to SteveParker   Send PM to SteveParker
 
ChrisD1 Profile
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Re: Diamonds and Rust


Yeah, after a singer has polished and performed a song countless times, must be a hard thing to keep it fresh, alive. Stage actors do it but they're trained somehow, they're kinda freaky. Nina Simone, now I'd say see she had duende up the wazoo. Really.
I dare ya to disagree.

Chris
Jan/28/2010, 9:24 am Link to this post Send Email to ChrisD1   Send PM to ChrisD1
 
SteveParker Profile
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Re: Diamonds and Rust


No disagreement from me. She was dark as a Flamenco filament dark as a dancer in the smoke. You could feel the helioclines crack around her.

Steve.
Jan/28/2010, 4:16 pm Link to this post Send Email to SteveParker   Send PM to SteveParker
 
Dragon59 Profile
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Re: Diamonds and Rust


If you can give actors credit for keeping it fresh, then you have to give the same credit to singer/songwriters. The challenge of keeping a performance fresh is identical in both cases, and the ways performers use to keep it fresh are also the same.

It's a classic mistake to think that a polished performance is automatically going to be less fresh, and automatically more filled with duende. That's a pre-judgment. in fact, the opposite is often the case: because a polished performer has confidence in what they're doing, they can take risks with the material, and go places with it a neophyte has no clue how to do, and no confidence to do. It's the same with experience in any of the arts, including poetry. it's stupid to argue that unpolished poetry is always going to have more duende than polished poetry, so why would you say that about singers? Unless it's just ignorance?

if you can grant Nine Simone as always having the duende, you'd better be able to grant to other singers, too. I find this kind of pre-judgment just plain wacky. Those great flamenco singers who have duende are not unpolished amateurs, they're highly experienced, highly thoughtful performers, who know better than any beginner how to cut loose and catch the duende. And there's a lot of duende in Bach's music, too.

So the pre-judgment is obviously demonstrably wrong.

Last edited by Dragon59, Jan/28/2010, 5:15 pm


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Jan/28/2010, 5:13 pm Link to this post Send Email to Dragon59   Send PM to Dragon59
 
SteveParker Profile
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Re: Diamonds and Rust


There's that first album phenomenon too. Everyone knows how sometimes a musician or a band produces something that contains all their life up to that point, and becomes a classic thing, and then they just dissolve into mediocrity as they become better technically but lose the inspiration. Children can have as much duende as old people, though in a different way. Some of both have neither and never will. There's the whole concept of 'beginner's mind' in this too. Sometimes people achieve incredible things without really knowing wtf they are doing; and because they don't know, they haven't yet learned the stifling restrictions of self-consciousness. So for some people I think the duende will appear in their early attempts, and then never appear again.

Steve.
Jan/28/2010, 5:46 pm Link to this post Send Email to SteveParker   Send PM to SteveParker
 
Terreson Profile
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Re: Diamonds and Rust


quote:

Dragon59 wrote:

If you can give actors credit for keeping it fresh, then you have to give the same credit to singer/songwriters. The challenge of keeping a performance fresh is identical in both cases, and the ways performers use to keep it fresh are also the same.

It's a classic mistake to think that a polished performance is automatically going to be less fresh, and automatically more filled with duende. That's a pre-judgment. in fact, the opposite is often the case: because a polished performer has confidence in what they're doing, they can take risks with the material, and go places with it a neophyte has no clue how to do, and no confidence to do. It's the same with experience in any of the arts, including poetry. it's stupid to argue that unpolished poetry is always going to have more duende than polished poetry, so why would you say that about singers? Unless it's just ignorance?

if you can grant Nine Simone as always having the duende, you'd better be able to grant to other singers, too. I find this kind of pre-judgment just plain wacky. Those great flamenco singers who have duende are not unpolished amateurs, they're highly experienced, highly thoughtful performers, who know better than any beginner how to cut loose and catch the duende. And there's a lot of duende in Bach's music, too.

So the pre-judgment is obviously demonstrably wrong.



No pre-judgement involved, Dragon. At least not on my part. Performances were compared back to back. The Baez video goes back to '76, or when the song was new and she was young. I guess we all take from our artists what we receive, right?

Tere
Jan/28/2010, 6:48 pm Link to this post Send Email to Terreson   Send PM to Terreson
 


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