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carolinex Profile
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Re: Changes to the board.


I would like it if you can make things non-googleable mainly as I am just a private sort. Once I wrote a poem with the title Queen Ozma and posted it on TCP. When I went to google Queen Ozma to do more research for the poem, my poem was the first hit.

Also, as I have some online presence mostly for my art but poetry too, I would like my hang loose, rough drafts, chatty side to be less discoverable.

Just for the record, I am getting into having stuff published too, but think it is silly to consider online workshopping a form of publishing.
Nov/20/2008, 5:20 pm Link to this post Send PM to carolinex
 
Terreson Profile
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Re: Changes to the board.


Good. Thanks for the input. I am wondering if folks could go with the two forums, Chalkboard and Ateliers, being invisible to the search robots. Let me know your thoughts.

Tere
Nov/21/2008, 7:58 pm Link to this post Send Email to Terreson   Send PM to Terreson
 
carolinex Profile
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Re: Changes to the board.


Is it hard to do with other sections too? I would prefer art sections and poetry critiques kept invisible.
Nov/22/2008, 1:33 am Link to this post Send PM to carolinex
 
Terreson Profile
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Re: Changes to the board.


So it is Saturday and I have time to spend on board business.

Dragon, I have not made any changes yet to affect the board's visibility: it's googleability, so to speak. So what you discovered means that Runboard has in place the feature protecting board contents. I've also tried some things. I've tried to search using forum names. Gaia's Gown, for example, is prettty unusual. Nothing connecting to our board appeared. And I've searched for specific contents using the name of a poem posted here. The result was the same. This indicates that board content, again specifically, cannot be searched, which addresses most of the issue of visibility.

Part two of the issue. It is, however, possible to search out Delectable Mnts and find a link to the board. The only way to block the search would be for the board to go private, or for registered members of the particular board only. Not even other Runboard members would have access to Delectable Mnts. This I am not inclined to do. As much as I love Lily's spot, my feeling is that its very privacy has brought about the lack of paerticipation. (Chalk it up to a limited gene pool.)

Now for part three. As it stands, a non-registered member, a visitor, to the board can view all contents. But they have to know it exists. As I mentioned a few months ago I have posted a notice with Runboard announcing the creation of Delectable Mnts. So registered members of Runboard itself have access to our board and to its contents.

So, if I have done my homework correctly this is how the matter of visibility stands. While the board can be searched out, specific content cannot. And non-registered members, visitors, to the board have access to content. Speaking for myself, the limited protection makes for a pretty safe environment. I am okay with the present arrangement. My intention has always been to make a public board. At the same time, however, I want to be sure all members feel comfortable with board workings. So what I am considering is the following.

It is to slightly change the make-up of the studio space forum, Ateliers. Rather than it being a spot for longer works only, opening up its parameters, and making it visible to registered members of Delectable Mnts only. (I think I can make it invisible to Runboard members who are not Delectable Mnts members, but I am not entirely sure. I would have to see.)

That is it for now, good people. Let me know, everyone, what you think. Before making the change involving Ateliers I would appreciate more input from folks who've yet to comment.

Tere

(a couple of hours later)

I forgot to mention earlier that members have the capability of editing and deleting their posts, which tool can be used to limit the time a poem, story, or graphics work remains on the board. The capability can be used to good advantage by anyone who doesn't want a work on display for very long.

Tere

[quote Dragon59 wrote:

The changes and upgrades look good.

I respect peoples' concerns about search engines, but it doesn't bother me. I figure rejects a poem on the grounds that it was workshopped somewhere, and they regard it as published, my response is: Do I really want to work with you, anyway? If someone is that anal, well, other things could be a problem, too. And the truth is, for every journal that would reject something for having been "published online," there are plenty more that will accept it. It's a big sea, and there are lots of fish in it.

The HTML code that prevents robots from searching is:

< meta name = quote robots unquote content = quote noindex,nofollow unquote >

(I use quotes instead of quotes so that he code will appear as text here, not as hidden code.

Whatever setting or switch you found seems to work. There is a bit of code on the index for the Poetry/Prose forum that says:

< meta http - equiv = quote GOOGLEBOT unquote content = quote NOARCHIVE unquote />

Which should work just fine. (You do know that most browsers enable you to see the source code in a pop-up window, yes?) This code is specific to Google, but should work generically, it looks like. It's in the right place in the header part of the HTML page.

If placed in the header of an HTML page, robots won't index the page.





Last edited by Terreson, Nov/22/2008, 5:37 pm
Nov/22/2008, 3:43 pm Link to this post Send Email to Terreson   Send PM to Terreson
 
Dragon59 Profile
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Re: Changes to the board.


yes, it looks like Runboard has the default for this entire board set as no-archive for Google. I checked several pages at random, the code's there. So, it looks like we're already invisible, although I'm not a hundred percent sure that this code is as universal as the code I presented. It looks like Google at least is already not an issue. The thing to do would be repeat your searches on the other search engines, to be sure.

Re: Part Two: I agree with you. I'm not in favor of the board going private.

The thing to remember about the editors who might do a search for prior publication: they would be searching for lines or names, just as you did. So, being able to see the name of the board and not the contents should prevent any such searches.

I guess that I am pleading for not going overboard on the privacy and security issue. I understand people's concerns about all this, but I also think a lot of it is irrationally fearful, because there's only so much people can find out on a casual search. And trust me, if some anal-retentive editor is going to do a CSI-level search to try to reject your poem, then they have bigger problems, and I for one wouldn't want to work with them, anyway.

I'm okay with the present arrangement.

---
www.arthurdurkee.net
lcgallery.tv
artdurkee.blogspot.com
ruralplainsgay.blogspot.com
Nov/22/2008, 4:00 pm Link to this post Send Email to Dragon59   Send PM to Dragon59
 
carolinex Profile
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Re: Changes to the board.


This sounds just fine Tere. Thanks for these efforts.

I'll think about some other thoughts on the design here, but pulled my shoulder this morning, and my boyfriend is bugging me off the computer...so in time...
Nov/23/2008, 11:26 pm Link to this post Send PM to carolinex
 
Patricia Jones Profile
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Re: Changes to the board.


I agree with what the Dragon said....only to add that many fine journals even accept previously published poems...believe they should be seen and read again...not all editors are anal retentive about workshopped poems.

Pat

---
"Don't you worry--I ain't evil, I'm just bad".
~Chris Smither~
Nov/24/2008, 12:20 am Link to this post Send Email to Patricia Jones   Send PM to Patricia Jones
 
Sumner6 Profile
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Re: Changes to the board.


Hi Tere,

Here is the account I've created for admin purposes.
Dec/7/2008, 1:34 pm Link to this post Send Email to Sumner6   Send PM to Sumner6
 
Terreson Profile
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Re: Changes to the board.


Just so every one knows, Katfriend has chosen a screen name for her role as an auxillary admin. It is Sumner6. (Cool name.) I imagine we will see the name for a little while as Sumner familiarizes herself with the management area.

Again, I hope everyone is good with what I've decided to do. This way the board has a back up.

Tere
Dec/7/2008, 2:30 pm Link to this post Send Email to Terreson   Send PM to Terreson
 
Terreson Profile
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Re: Changes to the board.


I am finally getting around to making a change at Caroline's request.

Some months ago there was discussion concerning public access to posts. Thanks, in part, to Dragonman, we discovered that Runboard has certain safeguards in place concerning the robo fingers of search engines. But, if I remember correctly, Caroline had asked for a greater degree of protection. Also, I have realized that guests who are not on the board's memberlist have access to all forums.

Ateliers, the board's studio forum, is now limited to Delectable Mnts. membership list. No guests have access to the space. So anyone who wishes to use the studio space can now do so knowing visibility is limited to the memberlist only.

I hope this works for everyone. If it doesn't let me know and we can revisit the issue.

Tere
Jan/17/2009, 4:12 pm Link to this post Send Email to Terreson   Send PM to Terreson
 
Terreson Profile
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Re: Changes to the board.


I damn near forgot. Back on the fifth of the month (revised on the sixth) I proposed we rotate administrators amongst the board's membership. The idea kind of romances me. This way everyone gets to run the board for a certain tenure of time. Everyone, in tandem, gets to take board proceedings ownership.

Said in my best valley girl imitation, I am like, you know, so open to the notion.

Tere
Jan/17/2009, 6:25 pm Link to this post Send Email to Terreson   Send PM to Terreson
 
carolinex Profile
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Re: Changes to the board.


Thanks Tere. That was nice of you.
I just this morning finally typed up my first entries for the how-to-collage blog. I don't know if that would really interest anyone here, but if it might? I can post there. I could use some feed-back.
Jan/18/2009, 5:42 pm Link to this post Send PM to carolinex
 
carolinex Profile
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Re: Changes to the board.


The other wacky thing is I decided to try to finish a short story I started three years ago. I had written three others and that's where I stopped. I was reading them the other day and they seemed not bad.

Maybe someone else is writing short stories? I could read and comment on a story if someone wanted to read and comment on one of mine?
Jan/18/2009, 5:45 pm Link to this post Send PM to carolinex
 
Patricia Jones Profile
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Re: Changes to the board.


I would love to read your "How to Collage", Caroline.

Pat

---
"Don't you worry--I ain't evil, I'm just bad".
~Chris Smither~
Jan/18/2009, 5:47 pm Link to this post Send Email to Patricia Jones   Send PM to Patricia Jones
 
carolinex Profile
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Re: Changes to the board.


Cool. I have to let it set a few days but will aim for the end of the week...
Jan/18/2009, 5:55 pm Link to this post Send PM to carolinex
 
Terreson Profile
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Re: Changes to the board.


Caroline, the purpose of the studio space is that it is there for members to use in the way that is right for them. In the truest sense of the word it is a studio, your space is your space. Sketches, works in progress, with or without feedback, however you wish to proceed.

I too would enjoy seeing what you have to say and think about the collage process. It would make for a nice window view into an artist's practices. And you bet. If you want I'll swap short stories with you.

Tere

Last edited by Terreson, Jan/18/2009, 10:14 pm
Jan/18/2009, 6:50 pm Link to this post Send Email to Terreson   Send PM to Terreson
 
Katlin Profile
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Re: Changes to the board.


Hi Caroline,

I'd be interested in reading "How to Collage" as well. BTW, did you give your talk on the topic yet? If yes, how did it go? If no, good luck and let us know.
Jan/18/2009, 7:15 pm Link to this post Send Email to Katlin   Send PM to Katlin
 
carolinex Profile
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Re: Changes to the board.


That's so nice. Kaitlin/Tere. I looked over what I typed yesterday and it was pretty a mess. I've been waking up too early in the morning and writing then going back to sleep...So now to craft. It's a challenge for having gotten used to very compressed writing in poems.

Anyway, this is a great motivator to know I will have readers. I'm realize I know a lot about this subject and am easily overwhelmed.

That's great if you would like to trade a story for a story Tere! Taking on a story is a lot bigger endeavor than a poem so I can only commit to one and it may take me a little while... Mine are around 6 pages double spaced. Do you want to set up a place for this? We'll have to talk more about what each other is looking for.

I've set a goal to finish a draft of the one I started three years ago by my next local writer's group, which is one month from now.

Hope I'm not taking on too many big projects. I always want to do so much more than I am able. I need more hands!
Jan/19/2009, 2:02 pm Link to this post Send PM to carolinex
 
Terreson Profile
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Re: Changes to the board.


Caroline says: "That's great if you would like to trade a story for a story Tere! Taking on a story is a lot bigger endeavor than a poem so I can only commit to one and it may take me a little while... Mine are around 6 pages double spaced. Do you want to set up a place for this? We'll have to talk more about what each other is looking for."

Since I think you are most comfortable with drafts and such on the Eteliers forum, how about you start a thread there. I don't know. Call it Caroline's Cafe. I too can start a thread, and we can work in tandem. (As can anyone else who wants to play.) As for what I am looking for? Fun. And you?

Tere
Jan/19/2009, 3:45 pm Link to this post Send Email to Terreson   Send PM to Terreson
 
Terreson Profile
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Re: Changes to the board.


I want to put something out there for everyone to think over.

I contacted Runboard's admin to find out their specific stand on issues of copyright. Specifically, I was concerned with questions involving the posting of third party poems. Their answer was to say it is less a matter of Runboard's approach than a matter of copyright laws.

Anyone who has dealt with copyright issues knows that, viewed specifically and in detail, there are gray, even porous areas not cleanly covered by the laws. One such area is "Fair Use," what would involve, in our case, the posting of third party poems. I remember that Poets.org has a rule to the effect that only a small portion of a third party's poem can be posted with, if available, a link given for an already established venue giving the poem's full text.

We have not established a protocol covering fair use standards. Something, perhaps, I should have thought about many months ago. (my bad) I would like to address the issue now and with due deliberation involving everyone. To my mind there is no satisfactory solution. And I can see the issue from both, if not all sides. I am needing help in figuring the thing through.

Until we can establish protocol concerning fair use, I am going to ask that no text or illustration of a living, third party author or artist be copied or typed to the board in full. Posting links to an already established venue in which the full text or illustration of a third party appears I think should be okay.

Here is something Runboard sent me, posted for everyone to read. It is from copyright protocol, specifically covering fair use standards.

"One of the rights accorded to the owner of copyright is the right to reproduce or to authorize others to reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords. This right is subject to certain limitations found in sections 107 through 118 of the Copyright Act (title 17, U. S. Code). One of the more important limitations is the doctrine of “fair use.” Although fair use was not mentioned in the previous copyright law, the doctrine has developed through a substantial number of court decisions over the years. This doctrine has been codified in section 107 of the copyright law.

Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered “fair,” such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Section 107 also sets out four factors to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use is fair:

the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

the nature of the copyrighted work;

amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The distinction between “fair use” and infringement may be unclear and not easily defined. There is no specific number of words, lines, or notes that may safely be taken without permission. Acknowledging the source of the copyrighted material does not substitute for obtaining permission.

The 1961 Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law cites examples of activities that courts have regarded as fair use: “quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author's observations; use in a parody of some of the content of the work parodied; summary of an address or article, with brief quotations, in a news report; reproduction by a library of a portion of a work to replace part of a damaged copy; reproduction by a teacher or student of a small part of a work to illustrate a lesson; reproduction of a work in legislative or judicial proceedings or reports; incidental and fortuitous reproduction, in a newsreel or broadcast, of a work located in the scene of an event being reported.”

Copyright protects the particular way an author has expressed himself; it does not extend to any ideas, systems, or factual information conveyed in the work.

The safest course is always to get permission from the copyright owner before using copyrighted material. The Copyright Office cannot give this permission.

When it is impracticable to obtain permission, use of copyrighted material should be avoided unless the doctrine of “fair use” would clearly apply to the situation. The Copyright Office can neither determine if a certain use may be considered “fair” nor advise on possible copyright violations. If there is any doubt, it is advisable to consult an attorney.

FL-102, Revised July 2006"

Also, here is a link to the Copyright Office.

http://www.copyright.gov/

Tere
Jan/19/2009, 4:40 pm Link to this post Send Email to Terreson   Send PM to Terreson
 
Terreson Profile
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Re: Board Business and Updates


Here is something to think about, something about which I am asking for feedback.

With the credits purchased I was able to increase the size of both topics per page (to 40) and posts per topic (to 30). I figure this is a good thing. I bet others have felt the same when, on other boards, they've seen a topic relegated to second page within a couple of weeks and a post within a month. Second page status amounts to a morgue file and a topic rarely gets resurrected. So my intention was to lengthen the life of topics and posts by making them more easily available.

But there is a downside to the option, which is the incidental clutter that, it could be argued, hides topics the way spreading bamboo hides views.

A couple of weeks ago I did some weeding, pruning, culling, or whatever you want to call it. I went back to Sep and Oct and pulled from the board incidental topics generating no conversation or comments. I didn't touch the poetry or other creative writing, and my criterion was simply: could this make for conversation later? The question for me now is how is the board to proceed? Do we keep everything or do we proceed judiciously?

This is tricky business, since, the judgement is subjective. Some topics posted four months ago are worth the conversation now. Some are not. And somebody has to decide between the two cases. Or maybe not.

Here are the options I can see. All topics and posts stand until the board reaches Runboard's space-limit, at which time they automatically drop off the older posts. (I can't remember the topic limit, but there is a limit.) This would be both good and bad. Good because I for one am off the hook. Bad because maybe two years from now there is something today that still deserves attention. Come to think of it, bad also because Runboard's robot is not going to differentiate between poem and chit-chat.

Second option. A committee forms whose responsibility is to recommend what gets culled. This is the option I like the most, mostly because it involves board members. Viewed realistically, I get that most members like to play creatively without having to tighten nuts and bolts.

Third option. Admin type goes back three to four months and does the judicious culling.

I do so want member feedback on the point. Look around please. Tell me what you see and what you think is the right way to proceed.

Tere
Jan/26/2009, 10:25 pm Link to this post Send Email to Terreson   Send PM to Terreson
 
carolinex Profile
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Re: Board Business and Updates


It is nice if writing that is up for crit especially can be archived. Sometimes I am not so organized and lose things or maybe a long time later want to go back and read comments.
Jan/27/2009, 2:59 pm Link to this post Send PM to carolinex
 
Terreson Profile
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Re: Board Business and Updates


I'll look into Runboard's archive possibility. Personally, I am not keen on taking on another board responsibility, or of deciding what should and should not get archived. But I'll check into it. Do keep in mind, please, that boards can crash and data can get evaporated, even when archived. I've seen it happen. The better solution is to save material to your documents file.

Tere
Jan/28/2009, 8:27 pm Link to this post Send Email to Terreson   Send PM to Terreson
 
carolinex Profile
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Re: Board Business and Updates


Well, You Asked!

But that's really fine Tere. Don't worry about it then. I'll try to be more up on it.

Last edited by carolinex, Jan/29/2009, 1:02 pm
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Terreson Profile
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Re: Board Business and Updates


So it has been ten days since posing my question concerning the disposition of older threads no longer active. Here is how I propose the board proceed.

All threads have an automatic shelf life of three months. After which time a judicious amount of pruning occurs. The purpose is to forestall clutter and free up space. The criteria applied is this: threads not generating conversation and incidental threads addressing passing circumstance no longer relevent. Categorically excepted from getting culled are poems, creative prose, critical essays, original art, and material workshopped in the forum, Ateliers.

Three months gives members ample time to both bring threads forward for further conversation or save favorite threads to their own files.

I hope this makes sense to everyone. It strikes me as a balanced approach. The board's terms of engagement (Art of Conversation) will be revised to reflect the new parameter.

Tere

Last edited by Terreson, Feb/4/2009, 4:04 pm
Feb/4/2009, 3:58 pm Link to this post Send Email to Terreson   Send PM to Terreson
 
Terreson Profile
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Re: Board Business and Updates


So I just conducted a little test. Using the parameters for pruning only three threads got culled from the board. All from last September and early October, having long since been forgotten. In my view the new guidelines make for a good and fair way to go.

Tere
Feb/4/2009, 4:38 pm Link to this post Send Email to Terreson   Send PM to Terreson
 
Terreson Profile
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Re: Board Business and Updates


I am home today, down with a cold. It has given me time to look over the board in some detail. I notice that some posts have been completely edited of their messages. It makes no sense that a textless post should occupy board space. They have been added to what gets culled.

Tere
Feb/4/2009, 8:10 pm Link to this post Send Email to Terreson   Send PM to Terreson
 
Terreson Profile
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Re: Board Business and Updates


Perhaps it is just me. Or maybe others are having the same problem. As small as our board is, I am having some difficulty finding and following a few threads posted in forums that do not seem to fit the purpose. It also occurs to me that such threads are not going to get the traffic they deserve. I am disinclined to move around threads to forums that seem more appropriate, not wanting to be disrespecful. And I suppose it could be argued that what makes sense to me might not to someone else. So maybe it is just something to think about when we make our posts.

Tere
Feb/5/2009, 3:24 pm Link to this post Send Email to Terreson   Send PM to Terreson
 
Dragon59 Profile
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Re: Board Business and Updates


This board moves pretty slowly. Which is fine, but that means that letting things hang around longer is probably a good idea. I have no problem with threads falling off after a set period of time. But I do like to go back, occasionally, and read an old thread, maybe add to it.

In terms of archiving, I save off to my hard drive all of my own threads. I do that so I can review comments when I got around to revising something, and for tracking history. I've been doing that for many years, so it's a habit. I have many places to archive things, and the safest ones are on periodic CDs of my archived files that I burn off. I've been doing that for ten years, so it too is a habit.

Thus, I have no strong opinion about archiving threads here. But I do think, since the board moves pretty slowly, that a lot of time should be allowed to pass before something is considered past its sell-by date. (Not that I'm not a few days past my own sell-by date. . . .)

---
www.arthurdurkee.net
lcgallery.tv
artdurkee.blogspot.com
ruralplainsgay.blogspot.com
Feb/5/2009, 4:08 pm Link to this post Send Email to Dragon59   Send PM to Dragon59
 
Terreson Profile
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Re: Board Business and Updates


Good points, Dragonman. As said upthread, using the parameters suggested, I deleted all of three topics, actually four, two of which were mine, none of which generated much conversation. So I am comfortable with the parameters. Also, please note the exceptions to the house cleaning. The poetry, etc. And too any member can keep a discussion current by bringing it forward, as I think you've done on occassion.

Anyway, we can see how it goes. The protocol can get changed. Thanks for weighing in.

Tere
Feb/5/2009, 4:16 pm Link to this post Send Email to Terreson   Send PM to Terreson
 
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